77: First Aid Preparedness for Outdoor Programs that Promote Children's Risky Play
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[00:00:00] Welcome to Therapy in the Great Outdoors, the podcast where we explore the business and practice of nature based pediatric therapy of all kinds. If you're an outdoor loving pediatric practitioner in the fields of occupational, physical, or speech therapy, social work, or mental health, this podcast will help you start and grow a successful nature based practice or program.
I am the ever honest, always a hundred percent real. You'll hear it all on this podcast. Dr. Laura Park Figueroa. I'm a pediatric OT with over 20 years of experience and I run a thriving nature based practice with profitable locations in two different states and multi six figures in revenue. I also host the free online community at therapyinthegreatoutdoors.
com to help you pursue your nature based therapy dreams too. Are you ready to take action on those dreams? Let's jump [00:01:00] in.
Hello, hello. Welcome back, friends, to another episode of Therapy in the Great Outdoors. This week kicks off our first part in a three part series that we're doing on first aid, and what you need to know when you work outdoors with children in order to keep them safe. This is the primary, most important thing when we are outdoors with children to keep them physically and mentally safe.
So the first episode today is going to be a discussion of of the things and considerations that you need to know when you are a program that promotes risky play for children. My guess is that if you are listening to this podcast, you know the benefits of risky play and your program that you have designed probably involves some element of risk using real tools or climbing trees or using your body in, in vigorous ways. There's so many things that, you know, interaction with fire or water, [00:02:00] those are all things that are kind of risky play activities. I don't think I've done an episode on the, the topic of risky play in general, but that might make a good episode for future, future podcast episodes.
So this, this episode, we're talking about those things you need to know about risky play. Next week's episode will be all about The basic critical first aid skills that every nature-based therapist should know. And then the third week, and our final installment of this series is going to talk about wilderness first aid for mental health.
Wilderness mental health. First aid, I think is how our guest, Nicole Roma Thurrell, said it. Nicole reached out to me. She is the CEO of Institute for Wild Med, and she reached out to me. to ask about coming on the podcast to talk about first aid for nature based therapists. And I said, that is just such [00:03:00] a great idea. And when she filled out the guest form to kind of write the, I have guests that, that come on the podcast, answer questions on an intake form to talk about What they want to share with the audience here.
And she had so many great ideas that I floated to her that we actually make it into a series rather than just one episode, because she was so generous with her time and her knowledge. And I am so thankful to her for coming on the podcast to share all of this with you all. I do not pay guests, so. She is doing this from the goodness of her heart to spread awareness of the need for nature based therapists to be well trained in physical and mental health first aid.
And the great news is Nicole is offering a discount for all of our listeners here on the podcast. So you can go to instituteforwildmed.com [00:04:00] and get 20 percent off a variety of their courses using the code TGO20, T G O for therapy in the great outdoors, T G O and the number 20, 2 0, T G O, 2 0
and you will get 20 percent off any of those courses that she mentions in the flow of our discussions here. So we talk about so many different topics, but their classes actually are really cool because they are made to be engaging. They're not like a boring online class that most of us affiliate online first aid classes with.
So they are much better. Okay, let's dive into the first of our series this week.
Laura Park Figueroa: Welcome everyone back to another episode of Therapy in the Great Outdoors. I am so excited today because we have probably the most experienced person I have ever brought on the podcast to share helpful [00:05:00] information with you all.
Her name is Nicole Roma Thurrell. Rhymes with squirrel. I love her. That's how she told me how to say her name. And I love it that she's like a nature y person and her last name rhymes with squirrel. It's just so great. She is a wilderness emergency medical technician and a certified therapeutic recreation specialist.
And I would just like to, Nicole, before I let you talk, I would like to read your bio to everyone because they can, then hear, how incredible of a background you have and how much you're going to help us by sharing your experience on the podcast. So, Nicole was the recipient of the Massachusetts Award for Excellence in Science Education.
She is a passionate educator who loves turning people onto strategies for caring more skillfully for their fellow human beings. She has degrees in psychology and recreation therapy from the University of North Carolina, and she's been a wilderness EMT since 2001.
Over [00:06:00] 23 years, y'all. She has decades of experience working in many different aspects of wilderness therapy, including serving as an expedition leader, a health director, and a director of admissions. She has led adventures on the water, land, and in the air. She's done it all. She's been an adventure racer, a raft guide, a high ropes facilitator, a clinician for kids with autism, a Waldorf high school teacher, And probably the most significant of experience of all, she is a mom.
So y'all, I'm just, I can't describe to you how much we're going to learn in this next, in these next few episodes. We're going to do this as a series. So she directs, correct, Nicole? You're the director?
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Indeed. I'm the CEO and director of education here a he institute
Laura Park Figueroa: for wild med
Okay, for WildMed,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: indeed. Yes.
Laura Park Figueroa: is an award winning leader in CPR First Aid and Wilderness First Aid education. So, they've been in business for over 20 years, training people to skillfully and lovingly [00:07:00] care for their fellow humans when unexpected emergencies occur. They train thousands of students each year in over 30 countries to get the skills and hands on training that they need to be more self reliant and enjoy peace of mind on this amazing
unpredictable adventure called life. I love your descriptions here, Nicole. Welcome, welcome, welcome. And thank you for being here.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Thank you. I'm so delighted to be here. Indeed. Yeah. Thank you.
Laura Park Figueroa: I, I, I feel a little bit, I have to say when I read your bio initially, when you sent it over, I was like, I am very intimidated because this is like crazy. Like how has anyone had this much time in life to do all of these things? It's just incredible. The experience you have.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Need not feel intimidated at all. (laughing) At all. Thank you though. I'm, I'm very flattered and I'm thrilled to be here for sure with you as well.
Laura Park Figueroa: Well,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: nature-based therapists have become [00:08:00] a bit of a niche market for us and it's amazing to work with
Laura Park Figueroa: good. Hmm.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: You all. You are one of the most conscientious market segments we have. When we have nature based therapists in our courses, they are the most Like I said, conscientious. They want to know so deeply and so authentically these skills to be able to put them to use.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
We train
Nicole Roma Thurrell: many people who take our courses because they have to.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: that's reality of teaching CPR and first aid and our nature based therapists have a completely different, um, approach to the work.
They are there because they can really see the application and as such, they demand a lot of us. A lot of what ifs,
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: this, and what if that, and how will I manage this, and I have a whole group I'm working
Laura Park Figueroa: with
Right. Right.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: yes, yes, so they really, you all, really, um, elevate our work with the questions you ask and the demand that you place upon us for [00:09:00] really making it applicable for the field.
So, thank you.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah, it is true. I, I'm glad you brought that up because I wanted to tell you like, honestly, I, I share this with a lot of people. I've shared it publicly on the podcast before. I am just not a risk averse person. And I think a lot of times like entrepreneurs are kind of like adventurous, kind of like go with the flow, like just get it done kind of people.
And so I have not honestly spent a lot of time worrying about what may happen in my nature based practice. And this episode. We, we had planned to talk about, so let's tell people what the plan is
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Okay.
Okay. for the
Laura Park Figueroa: three, the three kind of episodes in the series. Yeah. Preview a little sneak peek of what we're going to do.
So this episode, we're going to focus, obviously, if you clicked and you're listening to this, you probably know the title of this episode, but we're going to be talking about things that we need to be thinking about as nature based therapists when we are running programs that encourage risky play for children.
So that is a whole ball of wax and [00:10:00] I think most of our programs, if you're listening to this or thinking about nature based practice, we know the value of risky play for kids and how it's kind of a dying occupation for them to use an OT ish word, but like a dying pastime, right? so we're going to talk about that on this episode.
And then the next episode will be more kind of critical first aid skills that all nature based pediatric therapists need to know and be prepared for or be prepared with, I guess. And then the final episode, the one probably that I'm the most excited about because I know the least about is we're going to talk about wilderness.
Or outdoor, I guess. I know many of you listening are probably not wilderness going out into the mountains for 10 days at a time, leading trips or anything like that, but wilderness and outdoor mental health first aid. So that is going to be a whole other ball of wax that I know many of us as nature based pediatric therapists are getting kids referred to us who have social emotional challenges and self regulation challenges.
And so that's going [00:11:00] to be a whole other episode. So there's going to be a three part series. Nicole kind of. through those topics out there. I was like, actually, could we record for a little longer than an hour and do three different episodes that are a little bit shorter for each topic? Because I just think it's going to be super helpful.
They're all great ideas. So let's talk about healthy risk taking and programs. Like, how do you want to kick us off, Nicole? I don't really have a question, but well, I do have some questions that I'm sure will come up, but why, why did you propose this as a topic? Maybe why did that come to mind when I asked you what you think would be good to talk about?
Nicole Roma Thurrell: you know, recently I was driving by a local elementary school and they had a signboard out front. You know, the ones where there's Holiday break from these dates to this date. And the signboard said, have a safe summer.
Laura Park Figueroa: Oh gosh.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Forehead to palm.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: You know, I mean, it goes without saying that we want kids to be safe. [00:12:00] Of course we do.
There's, there's no question about that. But I believe that when kids see this, And when parents see this, it plants a seed that,
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: one, that that's their top priority is to remain safe, also that there should be something that they should be afraid of.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: it's planting these seeds of anxiety
Laura Park Figueroa: Yep.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: As such, I think that, um, the anxiety epidemic that is present in our society is driven by these, messages and healthy risk taking is so important for development. So that was my inspiration. And then I did have a thought about a way to organize our thoughts around it. thought it would be good to talk about the benefits of healthy risk taking. I think, like you said, if folks are listening to this, they could probably list eight to 10 reasons
Laura Park Figueroa: Right.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: healthy risk taking. Although there may be some [00:13:00] therapists that are making the transition from working indoors to
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: And, uh, if, if we have their attention, I would love to share a few of our reasons for healthy risk taking
Laura Park Figueroa: Agree. Let's do it.
and then talk
Nicole Roma Thurrell: about what the barriers are. Now, why is it? What are these barriers to a healthy risk taking?
And then lastly, um, talk about how a solid foundation in first aid promotes that. So
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. That's great. So let's do it. The benefits of risky play.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: about the benefits of risky
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes. And how, and I hope I agree with you because there are probably a good number of students that listen to this podcast who aren't even practicing yet and newer therapists who are interested in nature based practice. There's always people coming into this kind of niche of, of therapy practice in all different professions.
So I do think this is a very valuable conversation to because I think once your eyes are opened to [00:14:00] how Traditional practice in as a pediatric therapist in any profession tends to ignore the need that children have for risk and a little bit of danger and excitement, the less engagement you get with kids, right?
Like they're bored. They, they will find it some way they act out. Right? So let's talk about the benefits.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Okay. So I have a few on my mind and just jump in as
Laura Park Figueroa: Okay. Sounds good.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: It builds their confidence. They do risky things. They walk away saying, I can do hard things. When anyone has a tape moving through their mind saying, I can do hard things. It will change how they approach all of life.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: I believe, um, it promotes emotional resilience. You do risky things. It doesn't always work out
Laura Park Figueroa: Right.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: and you have the opportunity to bounce back from
Laura Park Figueroa: Right. Thank you so much.[00:15:00]
Nicole Roma Thurrell: in a supportive environment where they will be with you all. What a better place
Laura Park Figueroa: Right.
Laura Park Figueroa: place to take these risks.
That is, so I will jump in here because something I remember when my kids were really young, and I have used this in nature based practice with children, that your response to how a child, to right after a child kind of scrapes their knee, or falls down and trips, or , does something that clearly is not a, well, maybe even in a in a serious situation, right?
Your response is in many ways going to frame how they think about it. I actually am in the middle of, let's be real, I'm skimming because it's kind of a, It's kind of too much information in this book, but it's called the expectation effect. And it's all about how what your brain tells you to expect is actually what will happen, specifically with things like injuries, pain, medication, health, like food that you eat, all of these things.
[00:16:00] So the gluten, you know, craze of everybody's gluten intolerant now, like they have, you They have shown in actual scientific research that if a, if your brain thinks that you are going to have a good response or a negative response, like that is what will happen. And it's, it's not, it's not like a, you're crazy kind of thing.
It's actual physical stuff that happens in your body. So your response after a child scrapes their knee, like I used to with my kids be like, Oh my gosh. You did it. You tried it, but you fell. That's okay. You know, like there's your response after something happens is really critical to how that child may respond like, like with sensitivity, but also just a, you were so brave instead of a, Oh my gosh, are you okay?
Like your anxiousness comes through to kids, you know? So anyway, that's just a little aside, but yes, I totally agree.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: and that, that's a bit of a preview into the mental health first aid piece as well.
Laura Park Figueroa: Oh, good.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: you know, co regulation is such a hot [00:17:00] term in
Laura Park Figueroa: Mm hmm.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: therapies now, and I also believe in co regulation. Disregulation. And so if we're dysregulated by their injury and we display that, they will
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. It spirals. Yep. Totally.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: about that more during,
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: mental health first aid. Indeed. Great. And then creativity. When we take risks. We must be inventive and creative and responsive
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: get to the other side of this, thing that we attempted.
Laura Park Figueroa: And the problem solving that has to happen, right? Like that, that creativity, cause I, this is one of the things that my research found was this idea of many different elements of nature based therapy bringing about this, this kind of final stage or phase of the process, which I called growing adaptive capacity and adaptive capacity in this other theory in OT.
Part of, part [00:18:00] of developing your ability to adapt, your adaptive capacity as a human and as a child, like children are human, um, is to notice a need to change, but then also to have the ability after that to problem solve, to come up with different ideas for how you could possibly change and do things differently when you're facing a challenge.
And so that The creativity piece is so key for kids to be able to adapt in the face of challenges in life. And I think that that, that, um, risky play is just a huge part of that. How kids, how kids learn from that and giving them the bravery and confidence to be able to, to do that Really, really important.
So
Nicole Roma Thurrell: definitely it's their sandbox. It's the workshop.
Laura Park Figueroa: totally. Yep.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Taking risky play in the outdoors is the sandbox. It is the workshop to gain these skills that they can put in place elsewhere.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: And then it's, funny that we're stating this toward the end of our list of benefits, but [00:19:00] Safety and body awareness. The more risky play is allowed, the more kids are able to identify safe positions, safe
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: from the earth, um, where their center of gravity is, how to move their body, how to right themselves,
Laura Park Figueroa: Yep.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: stay safe if they've never, um, been allowed to, um, deviate from walking positions and sitting positions in places with railings. often don't know the capacity of their body. And so to understand the capacity of their body better does ultimately mean safer experience in one's body.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. So it's like you need the risk in order to be safe. Like this is one of my favorite quotes. I'm just going to share it here because you'll love it. Um, from my research. So I did, I did interviews with people. I don't need to go into it here, but there's, so there's a lot of quotes in the article that I [00:20:00] published.
One of my favorite quotes was one of the therapists said, said, Um, you know, parents are the ones showing up at the school saying, why can't my three year old write his name? And it's like, your three year old has no idea where his body is in space. So let's start with the basics first. You know, like she, she just was like so sarcastic and funny when she said that.
And I put it in the article because it's such a great example of how kids need. The movement and that's what nature based therapists are just seeking like this, this desire for kids to be able to have this risky play and this movement that they need in order for their healthy long term development, really.
So it's kind of a, uh, a side benefit of getting kids outdoors that this natural kind of opportunities for risky play happen more outdoors than they do indoors. So that's kind of, I think, uh, uh, a good, like, kind of, It's an alignment between nature based therapy and risky play. They kind of go hand in hand, I think, in many ways.
[00:21:00] So,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Yeah, for sure. I remember my son taking, uh, having an OT, an indoor OT experience for
Laura Park Figueroa: yeah, yeah,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: work he was doing when he was probably five to seven. And I remember there being a beam, just a structural beam in the room where there were some handholds for rock climbing and, know, just go ahead and climb those.
And he climbed those and there was all this praise for doing so, but it really wasn't
hard
Laura Park Figueroa: yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: it felt a bit disingenuous. To air quotes, for those of you only listening, um, succeed and to receive praise for something that really wasn't. Yet when he attends, attended a nature based preschool and was able to climb trees to the extent of his own feelings of safety, he felt success and did experience sensory integration.
And so there were a lot of [00:22:00] benefits for just simply being outdoors. They tried to replicate that indoors, um, but it just fell flat.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't, again, that's like, I'm, I'm feeling so validated that my research, like, matches this, what we're talking because the core idea in the model I developed is braving real life challenges. And, and that's like so many therapists were resonating in the interviews that I did of you, like the same things you're saying of like the outdoors is just a natural place that gives kids these challenges that we actually ethically as therapists cannot arrange in an indoor setting.
Like we're, we're, you know, It would be unethical to do so in an indoor setting, to like push a child to be really challenged, you know? And, and I feel like that is actually like some of those real life challenges are actually kind of, maybe we'll get into this in the mental health episode we're going to do, like, they're really challenging.
It can bring up really hard emotions. It's not Like we're always keeping kids this [00:23:00] big idea and OT is the just right challenge, right? And yes, I want kids to be happy and healthy and have a great experience in therapy. But the beauty of nature based work is that nature kind of hands us these real life challenges that we can't control as therapists.
And so all of the stuff we're talking about, like the first aid and the ability to co co regulate, you is a way that the therapist can be, what I titled them in my model, the attuned analyzer and modulator. The therapist can be attuned to what's going on, can analyze what's going on in the environment and help to modulate those challenges that nature may be providing.
So it's all, it's all kind of bringing to mind my research, what we're talking about. So anyway,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Yeah.
Laura Park Figueroa: I'll stop going on about the research. It's just front of mind for me right now.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: definitely, and it's also just authentic.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: You know,
Laura Park Figueroa: Real life.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: on, yeah, it's just real. It's not contrived. I remember as part of his sensory work that it was really hard for him to understand the [00:24:00] breaking points. of items.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: things broke in our home
Laura Park Figueroa: Yep.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: he was experimenting with the breaking point. And they tried to contrive that in the indoor experience. And again, fell flat, didn't, didn't really make it, but simply going to a nature based preschool, he was out on limbs.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: they broke.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. That'll
Nicole Roma Thurrell: there was
Laura Park Figueroa: teach you quick. Right.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: the teacher was modulating. The teacher ensured that there was safety. That goes without saying with everything that we're going to say today. And the space was provided for
Laura Park Figueroa: him to
Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: be able to discover many natural breaking points and pressure points the earth that just could not have been contrived indoors. it's really authentic. Nature provides the opportunity as well as the feedback.
Laura Park Figueroa: Good point. All right. Let's talk about what we need to know as therapists. If we're running these [00:25:00] programs, like what are, one of my big questions for you are like, what What are the main things that we need to be, um, aware of and planning for prior to providing our services so that we can help kids have these opportunities for risky play, but know that we as the therapist have done everything possible to ensure that life threatening emergencies will not happen, right?
Mm hmm.
Right indeed.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: So, I think a big part of the work is, A self inquiry and then a teaching into the difference between risk and hazard. That's, that's hopefully a theme that is carried well throughout your work and the work of other nature based therapists is that you really identify risk versus a hazard.
A hazard is, is a, is something present in the environment that is highly likely to cause harm [00:26:00] to a person's body. And that might be sharp things. It might be water. It might be, um, weather it might be, um, tools and implements that you use as part of your therapy. And then, so those are hazards. And then risks are situations that people encounter that, if well modulated, as you say, are highly unlikely to cause harm. But perhaps may have the perception being something that could cause harm and that must be approached, um, carefully and mindfully and thoughtfully and with a gravity, if you
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: I'd like to use. Yeah. With a gravity of what am I, you know, what am I doing here?
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: really, and so I'd like for therapists to think through that before the work, what is present here that could be a hazard?
How can I reduce that? Yeah. And then what is present here [00:27:00] that could be risky and how could I modulate? And then talking out loud. Well, I guess what I mean to say is thinking out loud as you continually assess the environment about what is a hazard and what is a risk, while also giving the kids space. Um, so yeah, so I, yeah, I think that's where it starts.
Laura Park Figueroa: When you say thinking out loud or talking out loud, um, perhaps you're referring to both, but do you mean with other staff members or with kids or with both?
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Or just with oneself.
Laura Park Figueroa: Oh, interesting. Okay. Just like a mental exercise of
Nicole Roma Thurrell: exactly. Exactly. Oh shucks. I left that knife out or shucks I'm walking around with a knife out of its sheath. My goodness. What am I thinking?
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes. What I tell the kids not to do, I am doing right now. Right?
Exactly
Nicole Roma Thurrell: and just speaking that out loud. It's not that you're getting anyone's attention you're just background noise and it's it's Again, role modeling this [00:28:00] around hazards. It's also humility around rules. Oh my goodness. What was I thinking? I know I'm not supposed to do that. Let me get that.
Let me sit down right now, that safe, and then
Yeah.
Laura Park Figueroa: ill get back to
Nicole Roma Thurrell: what I was doing. So it's, it's, Again, humility and role modeling and no need to make a thing of it. Just let it run in the background and it will be homeopathic
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: for, for you to, Oh my goodness, wow, I left that out. Or, wow, I need to make sure that, Oh, you know, I want to be near you when you're, when you're near the water here or, you know, whatever it might be.
Laura Park Figueroa: I think too, it's good for kids to hear you when you do make a mistake and for, for use yourself as a teaching tool. Like if you find yourself walking with the, with the knife, I would probably in a nature based session, if the kids were around, I would probably [00:29:00] draw attention to it in like a playful way.
Right? Like, Oh my gosh, you guys. Look at what I'm doing. Am I, am I supposed to walk around with this knife with no cover on it? Oh my gosh. I can't believe I did that. Where should, what should we do? Like inviting kids into the problem solving with you? Like, how do you,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Sure.
Laura Park Figueroa: can you help me remember that I'm not supposed to walk around?
Cause then they start to be like, Oh, we're helping the adult. Ooh, you know, like we're in charge here. You know, like, Maintain the illusion that the children are in charge. That is basically my approach to, to therapy outdoors with kids. But, um, So yeah, I do think there's that, like a big part of what I believe in is like learning through failure.
I call it fail learn, like a fail learn. And I think it's okay to like, I love that you shared that, that it should just be this like kind of constant in the background of our mind, like thinking about safety while kids are, are doing risky play. Um, can [00:30:00] I ask you some specific questions about like, like actual activities?
Like, can we get into a little nitty gritty with Like all therapists are going to have their own like internal meter of what makes them uncomfortable or comfortable, like where their comfort level is with like the level of risky play, right? Are there guidelines? Are there ideas you have around things like climbing up really high in a tree?
Or how high can you swing on that tree swing that we put up? Or, you know, just like, you know what I mean, like the specific things that happen when you're outdoors with kids, like, are there things that you have seen cause injury? We should have a, that we should have a high meter of safety around, I guess.
That was a long question. Sorry.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: no, I hear you. I hear you. And let's see. [00:31:00] I would love to give you really clear, formulaic, black and white answers that would help everybody make their policies and procedures and feel comfortable and confident. And I would love to do that for you. there's a piece of me that's like, Oh, there's too much. There are too are we working with? What age are they? How far are you from help? Is there cell reception? What is the level, the standard of care? Is there
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: aid? Is there wilderness first aid? Is there wilderness first responder? You know, there are so many, uh,
variables
Laura Park Figueroa: Yep.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: On situations that make it really hard for me to be black and white about it.
And above all would be, what are your department of health regulations do they say? Or, or Jake, or, you know, any, any other credentialing body that you are [00:32:00] seeking licensure through, what are they saying that you can do and can't do? So, so there are so many variables.
Laura Park Figueroa: Well, that answer though is a very helpful answer. I mean, I, I do think that nature based therapy is very messy, right? It's a very, I mean, not that people haven't been working outdoors with kids for many years, but lately it's just, and maybe we just know a bit more because of social media or whatever, but it definitely seems like, Yeah.
A lot of pediatric therapists are feeling the pull to take their work outdoors because it's like a bounce back response to how much technology has increased in kids lives. Like this is, I know I'm preaching in the choir here, so I'll just shut up now, but like with all of everybody listening. Um, but, but I think, um, embracing that nature based therapy is messy is something that people need to be aware of.
And your answer highlights that, right? Like it requires. Clinical expertise and good [00:33:00] critical reasoning and good thinking. to consider everything that could potentially happen in your environment. And so I would like to just use this as an opportunity to encourage people listening to get in a community where you can talk with other people about these things.
Do not be operating in a silo doing nature based work. Like you need to be able to talk to other therapists. I have a free community where you can do that. The therapy in the great outdoors community. You can post questions there. It is free. Right now I've thought about making it paid in the future. I feel like, Oh, I can't make it paid because I've said free on the podcast a million times.
So anyway, I feel like I'm going to be giving disclaimers, you know, as I, as I go, but, um, but whether it's, whether it's there or whether it's with other therapists that you know, that do nature based work, I do think it's important. And I do think it's important to Nicole, for people to do trainings, like with your business, in order to be prepared for these things, to, to know, you know, How to think and how to kind of assess the risk that [00:34:00] may be involved in different activities that are going on.
So,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I, I did feel like I was, that it was perhaps an unsatisfying response. So
Laura Park Figueroa: no.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: you hearing. Yeah.
Laura Park Figueroa: It's an honest response. That's all I do on this podcast. It's like, I tell the truth here. I mean, it is like, sometimes there is not a black and white answer, even in my research. I'm sorry, you guys. I know I'm talking about the research so much, but I, I did a study that required me to think in a lot of gray and I am a very like linear, logical black and white person.
And, and I do think that as a growth, It's been a growth experience for me to be in nature based work for the last decade or so, because I feel like I, I constantly have to be dealing with nuance, you know, and constantly be solving new problems. And I think that's what keeps us sharp as therapists, honestly.
So I thought it was a great answer.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Great.
Laura Park Figueroa: Um,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: be shy as a therapist [00:35:00] about even customizing that. per child. Yes, this child is allowed to work with knives because they have demonstrated X, Y, and
Laura Park Figueroa: good.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: And what I mean by don't be shy is with the other kids who are like, why can't I do that? And they can do that. Well, I have seen them demonstrate safety in these ways.
I've seen them demonstrate skill, fine motor skill in these ways. And yep,
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: the knives. And if you need them, you can, you can ask that child to, to do, do some carving or whittling for you for the project hat your working
Laura Park Figueroa: on
Nicole Roma Thurrell: and if that's something you'd like to work toward, can put that on your plan and we can work toward that and we can set a
Laura Park Figueroa: I love it.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: goal to do that too. Or, yeah, that kid is able to climb three times their height and I'm flagging you at your own height.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: and, and. You know, just really being straightforward and honest about that and being okay with that. It doesn't, there doesn't have to be absolute equality,
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. I, I,
it actually
Nicole Roma Thurrell: is equity.[00:36:00]
Laura Park Figueroa: I love that you brought that up because I think a lot of times as therapists, we are so like, everybody needs to have the same. We're, you know, we're very much like we want equality, right. But equity is different than equality and that is equity because you're keeping each kid safe at their own level.
And so I'm very glad you brought that up because that is something that I've haven't really ever thought about. Um, it's like, we want to be nice to kids too much, I think. Um, and we actually need to be honest with kids. More. Frequently. So,
Nicole Roma Thurrell: Yep.
Laura Park Figueroa: very good advice.
they
Nicole Roma Thurrell: can handle it and it's probably going to be inspiring for them.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: if, if it's managed well, if it's managed with compassion and honesty and directness, they're going to understand it and they're going to be inspired
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: their goals and they're going to work with you.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah, I love it.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: would.
Yeah.
Laura Park Figueroa: What else about risky play? I feel like we need to wrap this, this one up and move on to our next, um, topic. Like,
that sounds good
Nicole Roma Thurrell: me.
Laura Park Figueroa: I feel like we've given lots of great, great advice for people, so.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: and I might just share [00:37:00] one other thing and I think it'll lead in well to our next topic. And that's that it's a touchback to the co dysregulation piece. really
Laura Park Figueroa: Mm.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: think that if us, if we as therapists are confident our ability to manage the unexpected, the bleeding the twisted ankle, the, the head bonk, the getting too cold, the getting too hot, you know, if we feel really confident in our ability to manage that, will create conditions, energetic conditions in our outdoor clinics that will allow kids to drop in deeper to the work that they're
Laura Park Figueroa: doing
Mm.
Nicole Roma Thurrell: I really believe that. And I believe that therapists who are anxious and nervous and flitting around Always worried and they carry this undertone of anxiety the kid will not drop into their work So having that solid foundation, [00:38:00] I believe will create the conditions for the deepest work possible. Oh,
I love
Laura Park Figueroa: that I wanted to, like, put little hearts on my screen. I don't know if it'll work. I have this, like, FaceTime thing that happens. There it goes! Yay! If you, you guys, if you don't know this, if you have a FaceTime camera setting somewhere and you make a little heart on your chest with your hands, it will make little hearts appear on your screen.
So we're recording here on video and she had little hearts come up because I just, my heart just resonated. I, I was thinking in my brain, like, this is absolutely going to be the clip for Instagram promotion of this episode because, because it just is so true. It's our energy that we bring. To the setting that we are facilitating the, the session we're facilitating with children is it sets the tone, right?
For how they're going to respond. So
Nicole Roma Thurrell: I'd love to be able to capture that with clinical research. I hope that it doesn't sound too, um, subjective.
Laura Park Figueroa: [00:39:00] no, I think it's totally true. And I'm sure that there's research that supports that idea. So, so shall we talk about critical first aid skills that we all need?
We are going to talk about critical first aid skills, but that is going to be next week's episode. So I am going to break the conversation here and you'll have to tune in next week for another really amazing episode with Nicole. Isn't she so great? Didn't you learn so much? I just so enjoyed these conversations.
I can't wait to share the next two episodes with you all and stay tuned now because I have a new freebie for you.
Hey, before you go, I have a freebie for you that I haven't mentioned on the podcast before. I compiled a list of peer reviewed research studies that can inform nature based pediatric practice for occupational, physical, and speech therapists, as well as mental health specialists. I divided the list into those different professional categories as well as included [00:40:00] some references that are applicable to any nature based therapist.
So if you want to get a copy of this reference list to inform your work, you can go to therapyinthegreatoutdoors. com backslash april 2024. Because that is about the time when I compiled the research. I plan to make many more of these lists in the future to help you all stay up to date on research that can inform your work with children outdoors.
Now go, get outside, connect, reflect, and enjoy therapy in the great outdoors. Bye!
