87: Rituals for Nature-Based Group Therapy, with Katie Asmus, MA, LPC, BMP
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[00:00:00] Welcome to Therapy in the Great Outdoors, the podcast where we explore the business and practice of nature based pediatric therapy of all kinds. If you're an outdoor loving pediatric practitioner in the fields of occupational, physical, or speech therapy, social work, or mental health, this podcast will help you start and grow a successful nature based practice or program.
I am the ever honest, always a hundred percent real. You'll hear it all on this podcast. Dr. Laura Park Figueroa. I'm a pediatric OT with over 20 years of experience and I run a thriving nature based practice with profitable locations in two different states and multi six figures in revenue. I also host the free online community at therapyinthegreatoutdoors.
com to help you pursue your nature based therapy dreams too. Are you ready to take action on those dreams? Let's jump [00:01:00] in.
Okay, here we are. Hi Katie. Hello. Hi. So good to be here. After all our
Laura Park Figueroa: technical difficulties.
Yes, we made it.
Laura Park Figueroa: We're here. And after 25 minutes of just chatting with one another, because we found out we're both going to Nepal within like three weeks of each other for the first time for both of us, which is so crazy.
So crazy. I know. So fun. So fun. It was just a unique coincidence. Okay, everybody. Katie Asmus is here and she is a licensed psychotherapist and she has 30 years of experience in therapeutic nature based interventions. She's the founder of the Somatic Nature Therapy Institute.
And today we're going to talk about rituals and ceremonies for our neurodivergent kids that we see in our nature based therapy groups. And. We're going to talk about what rituals are, why they're [00:02:00] important, especially for our neurodivergent kids, especially for kids who struggle with anxiety or have autism, where they are really in need of some structure and some, some predictability in a session.
The key takeaways, I think, from this conversation are going to be that you're going to have some like actual things that you want to run out in nature and do with kids right away and try these things. So I'm really excited you're here, Katie, and thank you for sharing all of your many years of wisdom and experience with us today.
Thank you so much. Happy to be here with you.
Laura Park Figueroa: All right. So let's dive into what is a ritual. Let's talk about that first, just so we kind of frame our discussion.
Yes, so this is a huge topic that I teach in the world to therapists and healers of all kinds. And one thing to say is the word ritual is used differently in different [00:03:00] contexts and communities.
And sometimes it's used interchangeably with the word ceremony. But for me, the way that I think about it, which is I'm sure what you're talking about here, I think about them as differently. And I think about a ritual as an action or a set of actions that you do over and over and over again.
For a particular purpose. And that could be something that's done intentionally it could be something that, you don't even know why you're doing it. But one of the big things is ritual supports state shift. It ends up having an association in our bodies around a particular state. So when we do a ritual, typically it's in order to bring comfort or grounding or relief or something like that.
So again, that could be intentional, not intentional, but it's sending a memory to our [00:04:00] brain and body of Oh yeah, this is what we do now. This is how we
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes. I love that, like that language you used around it, it marks kind of a shift in our state. In our emotional regulation.
Really, like in our bodies, being able to do a certain thing at a certain time. So yes, that is really, it was a beautiful description of ritual. Way better than I could have given thank, I would've been like, thank you. It's something you do like over and over for a purpose, I dunno, .
Yes. Yes.
Laura Park Figueroa: So I've thought a lot about it.
Yeah, I think many people who are listening probably can understand this, but I think it'll be interesting for us to have a conversation about it. Why are they important? Like why do we do them?
Yes. Well, you know, I think it's part of our humanness and our makeup that we do it, whether we're intending to do it or not.
And like I said, really to shift our state. So, I think about even a friend of [00:05:00] mine talks about in my family, when we were, upset, we would take a drive and taking the drive was like, okay, this is what I go to, to calm myself. Or sometimes people say, I'm going to walk around the block. And so really to shift our states.
And then I think about in the work that we all do, and I know people are working in different contexts and with different kind of trainings, but as a psychotherapist, I have a beginning and ending ritual with my clients and my groups every single time, and it's pretty consistent what we do. And I say to them, we're going to take, I'm going to invite you to take some breaths.
We're going to do a little, pause, body awareness. And the intention is one to shift gears from wherever you've been to getting here. and really to shift your state to have a chance to see, you know, what's present now and what do you [00:06:00] actually want today. So it's a state shift no matter what we're doing.
And I think the more that we can work with that intentionally, the better to really then have choice over it. And have things that also we and our clients can use at home or, you know, parents can start using with their kids, to help them shift states.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. Yeah. So the, you mentioned beginning and, ending rituals.
I had written those down as things that we want to touch on. So why don't, why don't we talk about that? Because I, I think it will be, I think the episode will be out once this one is published. The thing is, this is the hard thing about podcasting is if you record ahead of time, right? You can't remember which ones are coming.
So I have recorded an episode and I think it will be the one right before this one y'all, but don't hold me to that because I can't remember off the top of my [00:07:00] head. But we had a pretty challenging first day in a group a couple of weeks ago for one of our groups here in Madison. And my therapist the therapist who works for me, who's leading the group and I'm there like kind of training her cause she's brand new to my practice.
Not like my therapist that I see for counseling. Yes, yes. When you have a psychotherapist. My therapist, yes. Yes, right. My, my OT employee. So her and I did a lot of debriefing and like thinking through after the group, like what could we have done? To make things go smoother for particularly one, one kid who had a really challenging time like transitioning in and, we came up with some good ideas.
So I had, I have this whole episode I recorded about like ways to help kids transition into a first session effectively.
Oh, uh huh.
Laura Park Figueroa: But I think. I think one of the things that is really hard on the first day, there's so much to cover, right? There's, you have to learn names and it's brand new and you're trying to establish expectations with the group and safety and all the [00:08:00] things that it was hard for us to like, establish a really clear, starting ritual and ending ritual.
And that is something that we talked about in our debrief of like, let's try next week to have a really clear, , we're doing this to start in a really clear, We're finished now. We're ending. So I think those endings are really, really important. So let's talk about what do you do with kids in particular?
yes,
Laura Park Figueroa: let's start with beginnings because that's a logical place to start.
Okay, great. so I think about anything that is sensory, related because really when we connect with our senses. It helps us come into the present moment, focus our attention. And so that could be anything from singing a particular song or, putting our hands on the ground when we're ready.
Or I think about with kids, often containment is helpful. So having their sit upon or something where they, it's like, here's my seat. This is [00:09:00] where I go. but something that really brings our attention into the present moment. Also with kids a lot I'll do to get their attention. This is a little bit more than just beginning, but where there's a call and response where it's like, is everybody ready?
We're ready or something like that. So really anything that. It brings our attention right into the moment and engages our bodies in some way.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. That somatic piece. That's what it means. Somatic means body, right? Isn't that what it means? It's like body based, right? Exactly. Yeah. OTs, we love body based stuff.
We're very into body based things. Like it's, there's not enough of it in schools and, you know, it's just really important for little kids.
Yes. And if you think about it, we always have energy moving through our bodies, right? And kids have lots of energy often, and that's one of the challenges for some people like, okay, how do we harness the [00:10:00] energy?
But honestly, if we give it permission to move in a more organized or contained way, often that actually helps people be more regulated, kids get more regulated as opposed to stop, sit down, don't talk, hold your, you know, hold it all in. That actually makes it more intensified. So how do we really do a movement or, you know, maybe it's a, even a stretch circle or a kind of dance circle or something like that that invites the movement to happen, but there's a very clear structure to it.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes. Yeah. I, you took me back with that sit upon word because I was like, Oh my gosh, I have very vivid memories when I was like eight or nine years old at Girl Scout daycare. Yes, yes, yes. They had that like vinyl fabric and we used hole punchers. I was in my brain going, Oh my gosh, we should make those in our groups.
So it's like a vinyl fabric and little hole punchers. And then you put [00:11:00] like kind of smooth, I think we even use newspaper in ours. Yes, yeah, we
use newspaper, uh huh, and then like contact paper over it or something.
Laura Park Figueroa: And you sew the edges shut with yarn or whatever, and then that's your like seat to sit on.
And I was thinking for some of our kids, like, it probably shouldn't be called a sit upon, it could be called like a drama pon, okay, drama on your, you know, or something. Because our kids, at least the kids we have in our groups, Currently, like, they don't want to sit upon something, but having that structured spot that is their spot, it could be like, put your snack on your Yes.
Drum a pon, sit a pon, whatever we're going
to call it. Personal space.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes. Your personal square. Yes. Speaking
of ceremony, or you could call it their altar. Your personal altar, your personal,
Laura Park Figueroa: whatever word, right, resonates with them. Right. Exactly. Okay. So with the opening [00:12:00] rituals, so do you do the same thing every single time or do you switch it up?
I do something very similar every time, but I do switch it a little bit. And so when I'm working with individuals, I'll, and I'm a somatic nature based therapist. So sometimes I'm working indoors, sometimes I'm working outdoors, but I'm always working through the lens of the body mind connection. So I'll assess with my client, are they more, hyper aroused?
Are they more hypo aroused? What is their somatic awareness? And based on that, it does impact how I begin and end because the other piece for me is I'm utilizing that beginning ritual to help bring people's awareness and grow their awareness to their somatic experience, to their body mind state. And so if [00:13:00] somebody has less ability or capacity to notice that, I'm going to do it in a much more guided, way than somebody who has a lot of capacity to take deep breaths and feel their feet on the ground, then I might just do a guided something without necessarily checking in with them.
And with groups often what I wanna do in the beginning ritual, there's typically a part of it that is similar, so I'm, my big ones are, feel the ground beneath you or push your feet into the ground and, mm-hmm, , feel your hands on your knees or, so really bringing us right here into the present moment. And then often I'll add some other skill or experience so that each week people are learning new skills.
But I like that balance of the predictable, the thing that people know, okay, we're dropping in now we do this part every week, and then depending on the person or [00:14:00] the group, then I might, , shift up the different skills that I bring in or experiences so that there is skill building at the same time.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. Yeah. We try to have a. We've noticed too that sometimes, especially with groups, it's hard because when you're waiting on five families to get there, like inevitably someone's always 10 minutes late, you know, not always the same family. It's just so you have time that you need to fill while you're waiting because you don't want the kids just kind of standing around and Yes.
Waiting, right? So we always try to have something for them to do with their body, right? When they first come to group and my, employee, Leah, she came up with this brilliant, it was so great. It was like a group game to start the group and they got really into it because they had to, she made like different levels.
Like you can do. Hard, medium, or easy. You can pick, you know? Oh, that is the best. And then she had two piles of cards. [00:15:00] And she, I'm giving this away because I was going to actually do a whole podcast about this and why it was such a great activity. But because it's an intro kind of thing, I think it could go here.
Just having like a ritual of doing a group game at the beginning, maybe. So she wrote, she made a stack of little index cards that had the names of animals on them, and then another stack had like actions like doing yoga, playing piano, whatever. So you could, if you wanted to do easy, you could just pick one card.
If you wanted to do medium, you could pick like, I forget what it was. One, one pack was easy and one pack was medium. I think maybe she said medium was like the actions or something. And then if you want to do hard, you can pick both cards. And so we had people like imitating an elephant playing piano or a snail doing yoga or whatever.
Oh my gosh, that is a brilliant game. Like, this is a tricky group too. This is our group that had the challenging first beginning and the kids really got into it. They were [00:16:00] all like, can I have another turn? I want to do another turn, you know? So I just think really simple, like group games that can kind of pull kids in with a little bit of like simple, playful.
I think the mystery of it too was like, I get to pick a card, you know, it kind of was like fun for them.
And other days, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, I love the, beginning or the intermediate advanced because then, you know, it's going to bring up the like motivation to, Oh, what can I, I'm going to do push myself.
Yes.
Laura Park Figueroa: And, and for kids who are hesitant, like I, one of the kids was like, I think I'll do medium. And I'm like, really? Hmm. I really thought you had a hard one. And I, do a hard one. You could do a had one I was just playing with him. And then he was like, yeah, yeah. I'm going to do a hard one, you know? I think we realized that it's just playful and fun, it's not really that it's a test, you know?
It's not so I just thought it was a very [00:17:00] creative Fun kind of like, part of the ritual of us starting is like doing something like that during the start. So I don't know that it needs to be the same every time, but maybe the gist of it needs to be the same every time. Like the kids come knowing that there's going to be something to do right there.
Right. Yes.
Well, I think then with the definition of ritual there of shifting states, right? No matter what your ritual or what you do there, the intention is the same. It's like help bring their focus in, help them bring in their body. Also begin, don't just stand around. So we're engaging while we're sort of warming up.
It's like a warm up. to the more focused group or whatever that might be. Yeah.
Laura Park Figueroa: And that one was so great too, because I think that it oriented them towards each other. Yes. Not all of the kids could read. And so one of the kids became like the helper. [00:18:00] So a kid, when a kid took a, took the cards who wasn't able to read them, The other kid that was a little bit older was the helper to read the card, and we had to keep saying, Do you want to turn?
Do you want to like actually do a turn rather than be the helper? You know, he's it was a really big hit with them. I thought it was super simple, like, great, great idea that she brought, and they were all really into it. Yes. So yeah. Okay, let's talk about, oh well really quick, one more thing along the line of ritual, like what you said with the call and response.
Yeah. So another thing we've done is like the group kind of has a animal that they pick as their like mascot. And then they do that sound for like a call and response when we need to get everybody's attention. Oh, I love that. That's so fun. Yeah. So it's, so that's kind of a ritual, right? Because it's something, although I guess, yeah, it's state shift.
It's like, gathering people's attention when they're in the middle of doing something. So anytime they hear a [00:19:00] crow call or the wolf howl, they need to turn and look wherever it came from and find out what's going on, you know? Yes.
And that is one of the best ways to get attention with a group.
And especially kids get really into it and like, they know exactly what to do at that point. Like, okay, do the response. Yes. I would definitely say that's a ritual. Yeah, that's a good one. Okay.
Laura Park Figueroa: So let's talk about closure, closing a group. Like what are your, tips for that one or things that you've used for closure?
Yes. Well, again, I would, there's two things that come to mind. One is again, something physical, a gesture, an ending in some way. And so that could be, bringing our hands together or giving ourselves a hug or a big clap all at the same time. So something that kind of even represents closure.
And then I also love doing something that has to do [00:20:00] with a takeaway. So obviously depending on the kids, you know, the age you would frame it differently, but that represents what am I taking from today? Or, What am I proud of that of myself? Or how did somebody help me today?
Or something like that. We're giving a very specific prompt and then also finding something in nature that represents that. Or the you know, having maybe a collection and like picking it up as they name that piece. So, which I think helps with bridging the experience back to their life.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah, that's we do.
I'm smiling because I'm like, yes, this is totally like We're doing the right things in my practice now. Thank you, Katie, for affirming that. We probably do
so many similar things. I can't believe we haven't talked about that. Oh, totally.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. Yeah. There's a definite like kind of rhythm to outdoor work that a lot of people do no matter what their profession.
But we do, we typically have done like to end groups. And I think most of [00:21:00] my therapists do it. It's not like I tell them they have to do this, but, we typically have. One of the kids finds a item in nature, like an acorn or a stick or a cool leaf or whatever, and then that is the talking piece that we pass around the circle, so whoever has the leaf is the one who's talking.
or who is sharing, whatever. And, they just say what their favorite part of the day was. And we used to do a long time ago, you know, like a lot of times, like with my kids, when we would have a meal at home, we would do like best part and worst part of your day or whatever. But I realized in my practice that a lot of our kids really struggle with rumination.
Like they just, they just perseverate on the negative thing that happened. And, So I, you know, I kind of shifted focus to like, let's talk about the positive thing. And focus our attention on the thing that we liked from [00:22:00] today, even if it was a hard day. And then we're also sending them home, like how you said, bridging the, the therapy to home kind of.
Yes. We're hopefully sending them home with the positive thing on their mind to tell their parents about the positive thing, you know? So that's kind of like,
yes. Well, and it's bringing into the frontal cortex and into, the consciousness, something that was good. And this is great because our brain is wired to look for the danger, not to look for the good, right?
Because the danger can kill us, but the good is not going to kill us. So we, it's actually a habit we need to develop and cultivate in our nervous systems and our brains to consciously look for and acknowledge the good.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yes. Oh, that's such a good point. That's going to be the quote. from this episode, Katie.
Nice. I love it. I love it. I was talking with Katie before about like, it's hard to choose good quotes from episodes, you know, so that's going to be the quote for this one. [00:23:00] Because it is, I mean, it's good to remind ourselves of that even as adults, I think , as therapists, it's good to remind ourselves of that because we, So easily can get discouraged because a lot of the kids that we work with her very complex Yes, so many things going on I just debriefed with a one of my employees this today about a kid who just had such a hard time in group and it was like suicidal ideation at the age of eight I'm like, Oh, I just am like heartbroken over it.
It's so hard. And so I share that to say, like, these are really complex kits that, that some of us are seeing and they're dealing with like really, really hard things for their little tiny brains to, to be processing. And so I just feel like it's, a good reminder that even doing something as simple as helping them think of a positive thing from the day before they head home from a therapy session can have a powerful effect on like [00:24:00] rewiring their brain to help them in daily life.
Yes.
Yes. Well, I'd love to insert right here. That I always say the bedrock of the work that I do in the trauma work, the attachment work, the whatever it is, is resourcing, which is really putting our attention on anything that brings more calm, good, healing. joy, groundedness, presence, or feeling better than we did before we did the thing.
And that that is the process of rewiring our brain and what we put our attention on grows. So if we're looking at the You know, we're noticing something that pleases us. We start to smile. Our muscles start to relax. If we put our attention on something that's distressing, we start tightening our muscles.
We start getting anxious. And so for helping people really [00:25:00] notice what happens when we connect with something good and what is good for you. And, then remembering that when they go home. And I think this is where ritual is so great because if we find something that works, I do a lot of teaching also of therapists , and I say, you don't need to have like 50 tools in your toolkits, especially for resourcing.
You know, if you have one to four that work great for someone, they're way more likely to do it at home. If you do it over and over and over and over in the session, you know, then they go, Oh, this is the thing I do when we're in group or when we're in session and then I feel more calm. So the rituals that really help shift states to a state of good or Calm or, you know, present in some way are huge to then, you know, transfer back home.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah. It almost like when you were talking, it was like a light bulb moment for me because I was thinking, it's like, [00:26:00] you're saying that It almost automates the problem solving. It like offloads the problem solving in the moment of intense need, right? Because if a child is familiar, or if we as adults even, this is, human brains are, we all have them throughout life, but kids are just a little less mature than ours, in most cases.
Yes, right. But, uh, yeah, I, I feel like if you don't have to think in the moment of stress, because our thinking brains shut down anyway, but you have these kind of automatic things that, you know, always work for you, it helps you to just more automatically kind of access a calmer state because you've practiced it over and over and over as a ritual.
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And then, so that's why I think often when we're trying to shift a, a ritual or a habit that isn't healthy, or is harmful, self harming, really one of the biggest interventions is find a [00:27:00] replacement ritual or find a replacement behavior. So when I have this impulse, instead of doing the thing that's going to harm me, I do something else that gives me maybe a similar experience of relief or satisfaction or state change.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah, so that's a perfect segue, I think, into the next question I had, which was, do you think there's any role for rituals around how we respond to challenging behaviors with children?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I even think about facilitators to, it can be surprising or dysregulating when something disruptive is happening.
And to have a ritual of even, it's like saying the person's name, I see you're upset. It's like knowing that this is the first thing [00:28:00] I'm going to say, and that brings attention, brings, connection, before, whatever the other intervention might be. So I think developing ways of, intervening, speaking with kids that, feel connecting, respectful, also intentionally having the inner, you know, uh, like taking a breath in ourselves.
And I know for me, it's been, it's very grounding instead of going, what do I do? Right. To go, Oh, I see, this is hard for you. Right. And that's actually something to do that again is acknowledging for the person, which is primarily what our, what we need to develop, to soothe. So that, anyway, that's the ritual that I, ritual that I might use, but I think absolutely.
And there's also a predictability for the kids, like when this happens, you [00:29:00] know, and it might be that it might be something more, but how do you get attention in a way that's not startling, but is also attention getting with maybe, a solid presence.
Laura Park Figueroa: Yeah.
And, and empathy, which is a balance. Yeah.
Definitely.
Laura Park Figueroa: Like being, like co regulating with them. Basically keeping your energy balanced. Calm while they're kind of spiraling. And that's what that can be really challenging for new therapists, like for younger people, because it is, it's like you said, it's, , it can come out of nowhere, kids can get really upset, you know, they can just scream if they, if they're are told that it's not their turn on the swing, you know, and start hitting people and running away or just , the reactions can be so swift, you know.
Yes. They can shift states very quickly on their own.
It's true. [00:30:00] Yes, yes. And their frontal cortex isn't developed. So. Yes, right, right. The adrenaline and cortisol is, is big.
Laura Park Figueroa: Right, right. So just having that calming presence, I think, and being, being kind of like, I know, Dr. Becky of Good Inside. Do you know her?
I mean, everybody knows her. Um, she calls it being a sturdy parent. You're like calm, confident, but firm, like you don't have to give in, you know, you can say like I had to yesterday, if you don't get off the swing right now, it's going to be a long time until your turn again, because you'll have to sit out this round.
Like, it's just kind of a logical consequence. If you're taking the swing and trying to swing when someone else is, it's their turn, then, So my, my employee was like, how do you always know how to, what to say? And I'm like, well, I've lived with children for 22 years, so this is part of my experience.
Yes, yes.
Some of it
Laura Park Figueroa: is like I turn on my mom, but
yes, you have rituals, internal rituals. Yes. You know what to say. It's in your body. The
Laura Park Figueroa: rituals happen quickly in my brain. Yes. ?
Yes. [00:31:00] Yes.
Laura Park Figueroa: Okay. Well, I think we're up to the end of our time. I know you and I both have to leave right at the mark, of the hour we had together.
So tell everybody where they can find you, where they can connect with you, if they want to learn more about what you do. And, thank you. This was a fun conversation. I think it'll help a lot of people too.
Likewise, likewise. So somaticnaturetherapyinstitute.Com. That's where you can find me and we do all sorts of things, psychotherapy, coaching, ceremony, ritual, trainings, and all of the things we do.
And, yeah, come visit us. We're also on Instagram, which is somatic nature therapy, I believe is the handle and Facebook. So I'd love to connect with people.
Laura Park Figueroa: Great. Thanks for being here, Katie.
Yeah, thank you so much and love what you're doing. Good luck to you and your whole community.
Laura Park Figueroa: Have fun in Nepal.
Thanks, you too. [00:32:00] You too. Take care.
Laura Park Figueroa: Bye.
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